how is this possible on google

[Kyle]

I believe Google is doing one of the following:

1) Accepting cash from big corporations to bump them into top positions. We're talking like millions of dollars here.

2) Clicking some button that flags the website and allows them to either.... rank high on related keywords, or rank extremely low or off the map.

Lets take one of the most competitive and lucrative consumer products, shoes.

The biggest dealer who also has an affiliate program, Zappos.com.

They are ranking in the top 3 for almost every 'discount brandname shoes' phrase. And they never use these words in that exact order on their page.

Google has definitely placed less emphasis on having the keywords searched on in the same order on the page being brought up.

Search google on the following-
discount steve madden shoes
discount clarks shoes
discount adidas shoes

There is no other explanation. I do not think this is the works of an algorithim. I believe Zappos has either paid Google lots of money, or Google is now placing emphasis on the huge dealers regardless of optimization.

Optimization is over. I have other examples that prove over optimization penalties. I believe it's on a per domain basis, not page. Google flags an entire domain as over optimized (could be an automated flagging system).

Here is an example (not my site) of an affiliate who used to be in the top 3 for every brandname shoes phrase.

http://www.shoes-style.com/ - Has a PR6 and what used to be perfect SEO.

They are an affiliate of zappos... and now off the map.

[incka]

It might me backward link text.

[Chris]

I still think you can attribute changes to an implementation of local rank.

Basically Google generates the results, then takes say the first one thousand results and reranks the results only considering incoming links from pages within that thousand.

That is probably a simplistic explanation but it can explain the changes people are seeing.

[chromate]

I don't actually think google are penalizing over optimized sites. I do agree that it would seem that way though.

My weight loss tips site (optimized specifically for weight loss tips) has never ranked at all for "weight loss tips" and yet ranks fine for other associated keywords.

My Carbohydrate Counter site has been "dumped" to rank #175 or something for the term "Carbohydrate Counter".

My Kitchen Appliances site has never ranked anywhere for "kitchen appliances" despite optimizing for kitchen appliances.

My Aloe Vera Healing site has never ranked anywhere for "Aloe Vera" despite optimising for aloe vera.

However, equally, there are examples of sites that aren't optimized and yet they still get dumped.

I have to admit, what google's doing just doesn't make any sense to me at all. I don't know why they're doing it either. At the end of the day, the SERP's are worse than they were before all this florida stuff - so what's the objective here?

Is SEO dead? Not completely, because simply making it clear to the user what a page is about will also make it clear to the search engine. But then, even this doesn't seem to count for an awful lot anymore does it? The SERPs are such a mess that it's not clear *how* to optimize anymore, which is the real problem.

[chromate]

Originally posted by Chris
That is probably a simplistic explanation but it can explain the changes people are seeing.

Hmmm. Local Rank may play a part. But I'm not sure it's quite as simple as that really.

My Weight Loss Tips site is linked to from a few top ranking sites for "weight loss tips" yet still hasn't featured at all. Similarly for Carbohydrate Counter.

I'll seek out more links from highly related sites and see what happens.

[incka]

Chromate - My sites are the same... I get links from the top sites, I optomize them for the keyword, I back link to them with the keyword, and they don't get in the top 10,000 results. What are we doing wrong?

[Kyle]

You aren't doing anything wrong.
Google is full of !)$(*&@)#$

It saddens me how their current system is. Regardless of what they're trying to do...

Even if their intentions are good with this algorithim change (good intentions being, less spammy sites who over optimize) there is no way for them to make this fair.

So many high quality sites who did perfect optimization have been horribly effected. I truly believe that the simple and straight forward optimization techniques (especially your inbound links anchor text) can cause serious problems with your rankings.

Flip a coin! If its heads, google will punish your high quality content site, if it's tails you're clear!!

www.momsview.com is making a killing! They rank extremely high on all their HIGHLY profitable commercial SERPs. Learn from them! They are the true example of a high quality content driven site!
</sarcasm>

Burn in corporate hell Google. Microsoft, Google is trying to take your place as one of the biggest punk *** corporations of our time. DONT LET THEM! Beat them into the ground!

[emke]

It seems to me Google is working really hard on getting worse. I honestly can't understand what their goals are since the Florida update but they're getting worse and worse. They might not care about what people think of them but for me at least I've started to dislike them more and more and they seem to be turning more into something like Microsoft than the nice company I took them for before all these things. :( Soon more and more users will start thinking the same.

[nohaber]

Local rank is given on a page to page basis, not on a site to site basis :D
Also pages from your sites, or sites with similar content (IPs) don't count. That's the magic of DMOZ (high overal rank + high keyword specific rank). Also the local rank depends on the first let's say 20 of the pages that link to your, and are relevant to the keywords. That's why you need about 20 top ranked pages(for the keyword) that point to you. If it is only one, it won't do too much.

A very brutal tactic is to exchange links with other pages. For example if you are ranked 20th and someone else 25th you can exchange links from the MAIN KEYWORD pages. Something like: "visit our keyword link partners". Thank will boost local rank for both pages.

There are other important things. In the future the number of visitors will play a major role I think judging from google-s patents.(visitor info is gathered by adsense and google toolbar)

This site is going to be very highly ranked because of the many visitors. The best thing is that the front page contains the recent forum posts, which makes people check the main page ;) (visitors rank is on a page basis).
Cheers

[nohaber]

I forgot to add sth.
If it weren't for the local rank, then DMOZ will be the first result for all keyword searches(now it is the first result in the candidate results, and then it boosts the local rank of the other pages).
Look for example at: "fitness software", there's a list a sites, then DMOZ, and then other "fitness software" directories. I made the stupid mistake of not exchanging links with them:rolleyes:
Now I wait for the sorter to put me in the reverse index to appear in the candidate results and then in the real results(now some stupid low-rank ones appear). :o
:D :D
The tactics now is search for you keywordz, get a link from all possible top result pages(not sites) and wait for google to perform the changes and kick ***
In the future - visitors + topic specific page rank will rule(i think if they try to make it it will be site-to-site, not page-to-page)